Prepared for internet by from the original booklet.




Dialogues with the Divine

Conversations with Bhagavan Sri Sathya Sai Baba as recorded

by V.S. Page

Printed in 1981 at Gilab Printers, 6 Bahadur Shah Zafar Marg, New Delhi - 110002


Pranam at the Lotus Feet of Bhagavan
Blessings of Bhagavan Baba
Pariprashna: Earnest enquiry
Brahm Sathyam Jaganmithya: Brahman subsists while the world goes
Sadhana: Meditation and Thinking
Nityavadhan: All-time awareness
New Year's Day
Sahajavastha: Goal of Life - Be as you are
Sahaj Sadhana: Automatic Process
Gurukripa: Theory of Grace
Punashcha nityavadhanam: All-time awareness again
Sargantara-Nirmatritwam: Power to create physical things
Nidarshan and not Pradarshan: Not an exhibition of one's yogic powers but an instance of God's creation
Nada Bindoo Kala: Sound, Light and Process of Delimitation and Identification
Sukham-Dukham: Pleasure and Pain
Signs of Grace 



It is said in the Bhagvat Geeta that Spiritual Teachers impart knowledge when questioned with humility and earnest desire or when they are pleased by devoted service, they shower grace in the form of spiritual secrets.

I need such knowledge of secrets. I sat at the feet of Sri Sathya Sai Baba and started questioning. He was kind enough to give out His grace freely. I was sharing this with those sitting around and sometimes participating in the process.

This is a faithful record of such Divine Dialogues. My only prayer to the readers would be to "Drink deep or Taste not".

V.S. Page


Pranam at the Lotus Feet of Bhagavan

Prashanti Vidwanmahasahba, Maharashtra Branch, Bombay has the great fortune to publish tjese "Dialogues with the Divine". One of the objectives of the Mahasabha is to publish literature carrying message of Bhagavan Sri Sathya Sai Baba to the masses. We have already published the Marathi Edition of Bhagavan's Life (Part-I) and a few other publications. We publish a monthly "Sanathan Sarathi" in Marathi undeer our auspices. With Baba's Blessing this is a small but sincere effort for the benefit of the devotees to understand the teachings of Bhagavan which might help them to mould their lives and actions to a purposeful end.

"Dialogues with the Divine" may confer, as Blessed by Bhagavan, great good on mankind for they light the path to the Almighty.


Prashanti Vidwanmahasabha,
Maharashtra Branch, Bombay - 29-11-1970.


Blessings of Bhagavan Baba

Man has grown so used to the amenities of life made possible by technological inventions of the twentieth century, that he has deluded himself into believing that he has reached the acme of happiness, through the intensive study of nthe external world and its control. Prompted by his desires into ever deeper involvement with that world, he spends all his strength, skill and time, in an effort to fulfil them. When he finds after long travail that the desires are insatiable, he is so overcome by despair that he loses faith in himself.

The scientist has unravelled only a minute fraction of the countless mysteries which form the warp and woof of the Universe, but, his pride at his microscopic success has shot up to the skies! This is not all. He has the audacity to swear that there is nothing beyond or behind nature. Nature is cognizable by the senses of man; man is the measure of all things; there is no principle more valid than intelligence. The ridiculous slogans shouted by these people against the inner discipline of the spirit are rending the skies. They arise from intellectuals as well as illiterates.

It is essential, at this juncture, to give those struggling in the darkness of confusion, the illumination that spiritual adepts can confer, through such Dialogues with the Divine. These revelations of Reality emanate from the mint of experience and are of the metal of faith. They convey the eternal truth, without adornment or alteration. They delineate Truth as love. The contents of this book are the result, not of blind faith, but the fruition of sincere inquiry, and ripe experience. They have blossomed from the bliss that Page has earned and enjoyed in his inner self. Books like this will confer great good on mankind, for, they light the Path to the Almighty.

May it grant joy and peace to all those who read it and shape their lives according to the lessons it teaches.

Prasanthi Nilayam
Date 20-9-1970

With Blessings, Sri Sathya Sai Baba.


Pariprashna: Earnest enquiry

During Shri Sathya Sai Baba's stay at Bombay in April 1966 I held discussions with him for a week at Shri P. K. Savant's residence. Some friends attended these discussions and sometimes put questions also. Following is an account mainly of questions put by me and answers given to those questions by Shri Sathya Sai Baba. I had made it clear before starting discussions that it was not with any untoward motive of testing anybody's knowledge nor with a view to teasing or to annoying that I was asking these questions, but I was doing this in search of Truth with all humility at my command. Shri Sathya Sai Baba apprecialed and confirmed my position and added "You are not asking these questions out of mere curiosity but with a view to seek some help on godward path." I further explained that all these questions and answers had the backing of my thoughts as well as intimate experiences and therefore were motivated by a desire to seek solutions of certain problems and answers to certain doubts lurking in my mind. Another motive in putting these questions is to get certain clarifications about some philosophic propositions as well as to seek corroboration of my understanding of certain mystic experiences and yogic powers. It is likely that some mistakes might have crept into these notes as there was some difficulty in understanding the replies given because these were received through an interpreter.

The language used by the interpreter was either Hindi or English. Shri Sathya Sai Baba understood both these languages. He sometimes explained in Hindi but mostly in Telugu or Kannada, which either Shri B. Ramakrishna Rao or Shri B.S.C. Swamy translated in Hindi or in English for me and others attending the discussion. When I sought Shri Sathya Sai Baba's permission to reduce these dialogues to writing for publication, he asked me to include an account of my experiences out of which these questions had arisen. I hesitated because I had no intention to publicise them. He, however, said that I should frankly surrender them to him and leave it to his choice as to what should be done with them. Accordingly, I am giving a short account of my experiences out of which the questions had arisen.

In the end I am giving a short account of public speeches made by Shri Sathya Sai Baba on 16th, 17th and 23rd of March 1966 at Vallabhbhai Patel Stadium. I should make it clear, however, that I am not giving these speeches ad verbum but extracting only some interesting portions that throw light on spiritual problems and some anecdotes given by Him. I earnestly desire that these notes may be looked at from the point of view of seeking truth in the matters referrede to in them. Earnest seekers of truth are invited to drink deep at this fountain of knowledge which Shri Sathya Sai Baba was so kind to release.

Last but not least, I have arranged these notes not chronologically but subject-wise to facilitate understanding of the different subjects that came in the discussion. These were free dialogues not arranged in very systematic manner and hence there was repetition of questions and answers, of course, with some variation, on different days when additional clarifications were sought. Hence I thought it proper to arrange the questions and replies subject-wise. There was no point according to me in arranging them chronologically as there is nothing particular in them that had reference to time. We generally held discussions between 11 a.m. and 1 or 1.30 p.m. every day during this period. Needless to say that others who attended these discussions immensely benefited by the replies and I am glad to say that Shri Sathya Sai Baba also was very much pleased with this sort of discourse and that he was very particular in regularly favouring us with his kind presence. A number of times he expressed that this had been the most important programme so far his mission to disseminate spiritual knowledge was concerned.

With respectful obeisance to Shri Sathya Sai Baba, I now begin to give my impressions about these dialogues below and further seek his blessings in the form of his approval to the text of these notes.


More than once 'different phases in the life of a bhakta or a devotee' came for discussion. Shri Sathya Sai Baba explained broadly that there seemed to be three stages in the life of a bhakta as also in that of a Jnani - a practical philosopher. Phases of a bhakta's life:

(i) Twaivaaham: I am entirely yours. Here, a bhakta completely surrenders himself to God without any reservation.
(ii) Mamaivatvam: You are exclusively mine. Here a bhakta thinks himself to be the chosen devotee of the Lord and starts to make a claim on him.
(iii) Twamevaaham: You alone are, I am not. I am yours and you are nothing but 'I'. Here, a bhakta sees God alone everywhere including himself.

Likewise a Dhyani also has three phases in his life:

(i) Soham: I am He. Here a bhakta contemplates on the universal God and tries to identify himself with Him.
(ii) Aham Sah: He is I. Here a bhakta reaches the stage where he feels he is identified with the Lord.
(iii) Aham Eva Aham: I am I. This is a stage where there is no distinction between God and the bhakta. He feels that He alone exists. This is a stage mentioned in Shastras as Purnahanta-universal 'I' consciousness. The final two stages in the case of jnani and bhakta are not different stages. They both are or culminate in one unitive cosmic consciousness which is indescribable by words whatsoever. This cosmic consciousness sometimes is explained in words as OM. We asked Shri Sai Baba to explain how I and OM stand in relation to each other. What is final, I or OM or God almighty.

He explained that there is no distinction between the conception of 'I', pure and simple, and God almighty. Both are different facets of OM. OM is described in Shastras, Sathya Sai Baba said, in a number of ways. It is called Shabdabrahman, Characharam, Jyotirmayam, Vedabhashyam, Nityanandamayam, Paratpuramayam, Mayamayam, Shrimayam. OM is all that is expressed in words. It is both motion and stillness, as of the nature of Light. It is all speech, all joy, beyond all ultimates, full of mysterious powers. It is all that is good, beautiful and auspicious. Hence there is no difference between I and OM.

Brahm Sathyam Jaganmithya: Brahman subsists while the world goes

There was discussion more than once on 'the nature of the physical universe'. It is widely known that Advaita Vedanta, Indian Monism, looks at the world as only a phenomenon and it lays down that Brahman alone is existing and the world merely a transitory phase. Brahma Sathyam, Brahman alone is truth. Jaganmithya, while the world is transitory.

I tried to seek corroboration of my ideas about this dictum. I said "it is not possible for the human mind to comprehend the true nature of the Universe as the Universe involves the individual who tries to comprehend and thus an element of introspection gets involved in the process of understanding." So, the real nature of the Universe is not comprehensible nor is it, according to me, the subject of Vedanta - for it to try to understand the nature of the Universe as such. It is well-known that there is a lot of discussion on this subject in a number of books on Vedanta. These discussions according to me are not relevant by themselves but they are relevant only with a view to understand the main object of Vedanta that is, knowledge of the self or Atmajnanam. The word Vedanta is used here in the restricted sense of Monistic philosophy or Monistic interpretation of the philosophic part of Vedas, i.e. Upanishadas.

Similarly, I very boldly tried to put it before Baba that God is also incomprehensible and man can only have some ideas about God which are likely to be imaginary. Hence in short I asked him whether I was correct in saying that Vedanta discusses man's ideas, suppositions, imaginings about God and the world and tries to silence them so that one may be able to realise the self. Vedanta seems to have a practical aim of effecting deliverance of or giving Moksha to the aspirant by giving him Atmajnanam or self-knowledge. The Universe and God figure in these discussions as subjects relevant only for the purpose of wiping out the imaginings or Vikalpas from the mind. It is true that a person who has attained self-knowledge is really able to see 'what is what'.

Shri Sathya Sai Baba was kind enough to corroborate my view not only then but on the next day also when he emphatically said that human understanding can proceed from one known category to another known one. Sometimes it can proceed from the known category to the unknown also, but never from unknown to the known. He said, "'We have some ideas about God. We have some ideas about the world. These are the two known categories. One can try to understand the nature of both but all that is subject to understanding our own Prateeti or impressions of God and the world. It is true that Vedanta has Atmajnanam as its object. Vedanta is a practical philosophy, not idle imaginings. Atmajnanam and Moksha are not two different things. Simultaneously with the rise of self-knowledge deliverance is effected. It must be understood that at that stage one is able to see the world in its true perspective."

I was glad to find that Shri Sathya Sai Baba confirmed the position stated by me and he clarified the same to a further point and shed a flood of light on it.

I then raised the question of the existence of the world. I asked, "Is it true that the world exists only when we comprehend it? I have doubts about this proposition. Vedantic Drishti Srishti Vada lays down this proposition. Shaivadvaita philosophy also supports this position. For a man like me it is incomprehensible. Am I to take that America is not existing because I am not comprehending it now? Do things cease to exist when one does not comprehend them?"

Shri Sathya Sai Baba said, "Look here, even though you are not comprehending a particular thing, somebody else might be doing it. And if none is looking at or perceiving the things, where is the proof that those things exist? And if you still feel that they exist, the only support to these feelings can be the existence of the omniscient God who always perceives all things. If proof is needed for such a God, it is as well, needed for the existence of things not comprehended by anybody, but it is wellknown that God is beyond all proof. He exists and His existence is self-evident and the world not being separate from Him needs no separate proof for it."

He further clarified that the world understood as something different from God or Brahman is mithya in sathya. In dream the world is mithya in mithya because sleep is transient and the dream-world is also a transient one. In Jagriti i.e. in waking life, the world is mithya in sathya. The world is transient while the Brahman, yet unknown, subsists as truth. So it is mithya in sathya. But to a realised soul what he sees is sathya in mithya because what people see is a world which is transient or Mithya, the saint perceives Brahman which is Sathya. So he sees sathya in mithya.

Then, I raised the question as to how a person who has realised Advait or unity of the universe should conduct himself in the world of names and forms or how does he conduct as a matter of fact? Someone among the present said that one cannot behave with all persons in the same manner. Shri Sathya Sai Baba said, "Quite correct". You cannot have Karmadwaita, the same action, towards all. But due to knowledge of Advait, you must have Bhavadwait, in current language "emotional integration". I then quoted from Yogavaishishtya.

Karmadwaita manadritya dwaitadwaitmayatmakah Bhavadwaitamanusritya,
dwaitadwaitmayo Bhava

Shri Sathya Sai Baba said further that Advait is self-existent and therefore self-evident. "You have only to blow off the ashes, to discover the red cinders. You have only to do away with the moss, water will appear by itself. With clouds gone, the sun and the moon shine. They need no outside agency to light them". He, to our surprise, in a mystical way said,

"Nothing is unknown in the world. It only needs that you have to do away with the veil of ignorance and the things come up to your view. The names and forms in the world are like different vessels of clay. The vessels differ but the clay is the same. The clay is transformed into vases by some Sanskar - jalasanskar, agnisanskar - water mixing and firing in a kiln etc. He gave this very easy illustration of a potter and his operations in manufacturing the various pots. The potter brings clay from the hillock after he digs pits, brings the clay and makes small heaps thereof, in front of his house. Then he takes out the clay bit by bit and manufactures pots. The hillock from which the clay was brought compares with Paramatma or God or the Universal Self; the small heaps compare with Jivatmas, the individual selves, and the pots with Dehatmas or bodily selves.

This explains the phenomenon of the Universe and the individuals moving in the same. Just as clay does not undergo any material change, so Brahman remains the same as it is. It is only names and forms that change. Shri Baba confirms the Upanishadic truth that:

Vacharambhanam naam Vikarah
mrittiketyeb Sathyam.

All names and forms have their origination in words. The clay alone is the subsisting truth. So Brahman alone is true while the world originates from "word" or "voice of many waters", to use the biblical phrase and is Brahman - that is always there and is full of all words i.e. Shabdabrahman.

Sadhana: Meditation and Thinking

Our discussion then turned towards Sadhana in the form of Japa, Pooja, Dhyana i.e. repetition of sacred names, worship of forms and meditation either on the forms or principles and a relation of these to Vichar or philosophic thinking. Here Shri Sathya Sai Baba said, "There must be three-fourths Vichar and one-fourth sadhana." He said, "I attach great importance to Vichar. However I have said more than once that for keeping either milk or juice sweet you must have the vessels very clean. So, you must keep your body and mind clean before you start any fruitful philosophical thinking about God, the world and the self and such other things ,and keep in mind that the mind can be cleansed by meditation only. But beyond all this the importance of Vichar is very great." I then intervened by saying "This Vichar is of two types
(1) the process of elimination which is like Neti Neti and
(2) the process of assertion that 'I am He', Soham.
One, I may describe as a negative process; the other, as a positive process. In my opinion, the positive process involves a priori thinking; something taken for granted; some element of imagination also. To me it appears that the process is unscientific in a way. I say, in a way, because scientific thinking also formulates hypotheses and then verifies the same. So there is no harm in taking something for granted and trying to verify it. But I feel there is a danger in the process of introspection and especially so, looking to the nature of the mind inclined always to assuming and then believing and then confirming very easily. It is dangerous to try in this field the process of 'formulation of hypothesis'. Negative process on the other hand seems to be quite safe. It starts with I, the existence of I. Descartes said: I think therefore I am; but I feel I am, therefore, I think.

One's feeling of 'I' needs no proof. Descartes doubts even the self-evident, tries to seek proof for the same and finds it immediately but 'I' is selfevident. The only thing is that this 'I' always identifies itself with something else. In waking life it identifies itself with the gross body. In dreamlife it creates another body, leaving this one on the bed and identifying with that subtle body. I sometimes had dreams within dreams, first, second, third. I came from the third dream back to the second, and from the second to the first and then to the waking life; so I have concrete experience of leaving consciousness of one body, and than leaving consciousness of another body. It can thus conclusively be assumed that there must be some 'I' different from all these bodies. Here, I related a mystic experience that I had some 30 years back. I had once walked out of this corporal tabernacle, the usual gross body or Sthool sharir and stood at some distance and looked at this body. It was neither a dream as usual nor day dreaming. I was convinced that I am not a body. Even in a conscious state I was able to change body-consciousness. This first experience came to me unawares, but I could repeat that experience wilfully once or twice." I asked Shri Sai Baba as to what exactly that experience was, and I requested him further to explain the merits of the negative process of eliminating all things with which I was likely to identify and realising the nature of the self.

Shri Sathya Sai Baba was kind enough to explain in a very benevolent manner. He was pleased to hear my experience and he assessed it as Sakalpa in Nirvikalpa. He said, "you had left off the identification with the gross body and to that extent you became Nirvikalpa but there was some Vikalpa i.e., the gross body existed and you were looking at it. It was not a dream, nor ordinary waking life.and therefore it was decidedly a mystical experience." He further went on to say that the negative process is really the best for a rational mind; but it is a difficult process and cannot be good for all. For others, who are of a credulous mind and can easily believe, the other process, i.e. the positive process, is a good one. I further quoted from his own lecture and asked him "How can Soham Japa be repeated except in a mechanical manner. Because we do not know what is God, how can we say that 'I am He' and especially when He is not known to me"? I had put the same question on some other day also. The answer was pure and simple. He said, "you have some idea about God. That God is all powerful, that God is omniscient, that God is omnipresent', or some such idea about God. This may not be the true nature of God. But try to identify with the God known to you and thus you reach God as He is."

I remembered Mahatma Gandhi having once said the same thing in reference to Truth. He said, "God is truth but as God is unknown, truth is also unknown. But God seems to be completely unknown. There are only imaginings about God, but truth is known to a certain extent. Let us follow the truth that is known to us. That will lead us to the truth unknown." The process of Shri Sathya Sai Baba seems to be the same with reference to God. But I still asserted quoting a sloka from Shaivashastra and Yogavaishishtha,

Atat Jneyam Idam thathwam
Neti santyajya yuktibhih
Prapyavaishishtham chinmatram
Soasmi soasmi iti bhavay

Here, both negative and positive processes are advised. We are advised to leave off things that are knowable and therefore come to our mind; principles that appear to be true, we should say 'Nay' to all these and with a tactful but logical thinking 'ward them off all' so that in the end the self alone will remain and it will be Chinmatram - of the nature of pure consciousness. Having attained to this, we should positively proceed to repeat that experience in mind as Soasmi Soasmi. I am He, I am He. Shri Sathya Sai Baba said "This is perfectly logical but it is a difficult way. Those who are fit for the same may take to it."

Nityavadhan: All-time awareness

The process of elimination or the negative process is a difficult process as was twice confirmed by Shri Sathya Sai Baba, and this gave rise to another very important question. It is said that the remembrance of God must be for all times. One should have one's attention directed towards God every moment. If this Nityavadhan or ceaseless attention is imperative for the early attainment of the goal, negative process seems to be of no use. It appeared to me to be useless so far as the conduct of our daily life is concerned. The process of elimination would not allow any activity whatsoever, I therefore raised a question before Shri Sathya Sai Baba: "Is it true that the aspirant is enjoined to remember God every moment? And if this remembrance means by way of process of elimination, it is very difficult to practise while living in this world and dealing with it. It seems quite impossible to carryon this process of elimination while talking, walking and especially reading and thinking. I therefore feel that this process is useful only when meditating and sitting in a fixed posture all alone. I would rather prefer the method of Sakshibhava, that is always behaving like a witness, as it is a better process to practise if one is to practise all the while. This process has been, advocated by Vedanta as well as by Buddhistic practices of meditation. To me this appears to be a combination of both the positive and the negative processes. Here we stand witness to our own body, our own actions and further to our own thoughts, emotions and mental processes. In the end we stand witness to elimination of everything. This last stage may not be possible while working in the world; or being witness to mental processes also may be difficult. But being witness as to what we do is quite possible and has been advised by all great men. The same process of being witness could be continued while meditating in a fixed posture, or Asana. There is therefore a ceaseless practice of being aware of everything."

Shri Sathya Sai Baba gave a kind reply as under. "Yes, it is true that the process of Sakshibhava is a more commendable one. You should observe or be aware of what you do, think or feel. This is negative so far as you get away from all that is Anatma or non-self, and put the self in the front; to be aware of the self is not possible because the soul is of the nature of awareness itself. You cannot have knowledge of the self as self is knowledge itself. But in Sakshibhava you could continue the practice of awareness in reference to all what you do and you will know it further that as you are awareness so you are happiness too."

New Year's Day

On some other day when a programme for Shri Sathya Sai Baba's public lecture was being worked out and a programme on the New Year's day was under discussion, Shri Sathya Sai Baba pointed out that the New Year's day must give you happiness which should continue for the whole year and should be renewed at the next New Year's Day. This ceaseless continuance of happiness is most commendable. Why a year, you should feel every moment as a new one; sixty seconds make up a minute; sixty minutes an hour, 24 hours a day and 365 days a year. You should feel that happiness is being continued every second. Why only the New Year? Why not the New Second? This awareness of God every second means being every second happy. It is all ceaseless meditation which we discussed time and again. This direction Shri Sathya Sai Baba gave to the public as he began his public lecture on 23rd March 1966 - New Year's Day according to Indian Calendar.

Sahajavastha: Goal of Life - Be as you are

I asked him one most important question and that was about the goal to be reached. I said "Means should be always suited to the end, and what should be the end and the goal of human life - is it Muktavastha, deliverance or liberation from all that belongs to this world and the other world? Is it Atmajnan or the knowledge of the self? Is it Brahmajnan, the knowledge of the one material and efficient cause of the world? Is it Bhaktavastha holding that the whole universe is an Idol of God - all speech, repetition of his names? Or is it Sahajavastha, being as we are with no new actions in the form of thoughts and emotions from the mind, but only reactions to anything extraneous and living in the most natural way? I for myself think that the ultimates Bhaktavastha and Sahajavastha are not different. They are the same and the other Muktavastha, Atmajnan, Brahmajnan may not be exactly the same but seem to be quite akin to it. I quoted from Sankaracharya.

Shri Sankaracharya has said, 'Let all that I do be a substitute for thy worship. My random talk, repetition of Thy names, any Mudra or Yogic pose that I assume. My walking should be going round Thy temple. My eating, an offering in sacrificial fire. My lying down should be Namaskar to you (prostration before you). All pleasure that I get is sacrificial offering to Thee'. This seems to be the highest state that one can attain."

Shri Sathya Sai Baba explained "As you have raised the question of means and ends, it is true that the means ultimately become the attributes of one who has reached the ultimate. So it is natural to take up the means according to the goal. As there are varieties of means, there are differences of shades even among the Siddhas. But inwardly Atmajnan leading to Brahmajnan is common to all. One who goes by a process of Bhakti, I have already explained, becomes a Bhakta; another who goes by a process of Jnan reaches just the same thing which is called Sahajavastha, all actions originating from consciousness of God rather than from individual mind. Bhaktavastha is sometimes called Madhuravastha. What would one desire, to be the sugar or the one who tastes the sugar? This is the difference between Bhakta and Jnani."

I then asked: "What is the difference in these processes before attaining the ultimate? Bhakta assumes godhood and Jnani does not assume anything but eliminates what is non-self. Is it true?

"Shri Sathya Sai Baba said: "All that you have to do is to liberate from the chains of Maya. Suppose if there are chains tied down all around your body, there are only two ways to liberate yourself. One is, raise your hands, try to be bigger, push out the chains and break them if you can, or, if you cannot, be so small, contract your body and escape the chains - the bondage. The first process is that of Jnani. He repeats: Soham I am he, the all powerful, the all knowing, omnipresent God. He expands himself so much that the chains of Maya fall out. Bhakta himself humbles down, almost to the point of zero. He says, "God alone is and I am not'. He becomes so small as to escape all chains."

Here I intercepted. I said "There is one story in Tulsi Ramayan that Hanuman while jumping from one side of the sea to the other met with a Rakshasi in the middle. This demon-woman tried to catch up Hanuman by catching his shadow in the water. She had the miraculous power of catching the shadow and consequently arresting the body. Hanuman thereafter tried to grow when the demon-woman tried to devour him. He tried to be bigger than the mouth of the Rakshasi. In the end he grew out of all proportions, but could not escape. He then became as small as a mosquito and entered the mouth of the Rakshasi and came out of her ear and went to Lanka. To me it appears that this story amounts to what you have told us. It exemplifies both the processes of Jnan and Bhakti and confirms that howsoever great a Jnani may be, he will have to humble himself down before Maya of the God Almighty."

Shri Sathya Sai Baba confirmed this. He said, "There are certain stories wherein it is said that when he enters the mouth, he goes in the belly and tears the body of the Rakshasi. These are different stories connoting the same principle, namely, Jnani has to become great and with his own strength to break the chains that bind him, while Bhakta has to humble himself down and escape the chains. I have a story for you which would illustrate all this."

"There was a King living in a palace and he was sitting in a high ivory tower while there was a big dog to guard the doors of the palace. This dog would not allow anyone to get into the palace. When the Jnani goes, he fights with the dog and gets into the palace; works his way upwards and then meets the King, while the Bhakta stands at the door alone and shouts. The King hears his voice and steps down (should we use the word 'avatarati' for coming down and call God while he does so, an avatar) and meets his Bhakta at the door only. So the devotee may not be knowing the highest reaches of Yoga or Jnan, but he makes God come and the Ultimate is attained, even when the subtle processes may be hidden from his view."

All of us who were attending the discussions were very happy with this illustration.

Shri Sathya Sai Baba uses a special method of illustrating the highest principles with the simplest stories and anecdotes. The story that he related explained fully the processes of Bhakti and Jnan. I carried on the point which I raised further.

"Is it then true that the ultimate state is that of Jnani-Bhakta as the Gita has laid down that Jnani-Bhakta is dearest to God. This is also Sahajavastha, as Bhakti in this stage is also natural to him. Bhakti that was means in the beginning is now a natural attribute or Lakshan of Jnani."

Shri Sathya Sai Baba confirmed this position, but emphasized "Nothing could be attained unless we have ceaseless practice of Jnan or Bhakti or whatever you may call it. Every moment you should remember God and be happy. This alone will give you peace. Are we not at peace when one thought ceases and another does not rise? You have to watch that, be one with that, there is ceaseless, continuous peace. Thoughts arise and die out as ripples on the surface of water. You have to look to the water rather than the ripples and waves; peace is there always in the mind of man, but he forgets that and attends to the waves. Nityavadhan, a ceaseless spiritual practice, means only neglecting the waves and watching the water."

I still further pursued the point in the following way. I asked, "Is it necessary for the aspirant to attain to the stage of Nirvikalpa (mind without any movement) some time or the other? To exploit the simile which you so kindly have mentioned, I may say this Nirvikalpa is like water without waves and ripples. Can we watch the water even when there are waves and ripples? Is it not necessary at least to have some temporary experience of deep peace with no mental modification, the so-called Nirvikalpa? To remember, it is necessary that we should have experienced it before. Similarly in Sahajavastha it might be possible for us to have a continuous deep peace in mind but should we not have experienced it in the form of Nirvikalpa sometime or other? According to me this is a crucial question, and I need a very clear answer to it for me to profit by it.

Shri Sathya Sai Baba said with a smile, "Yes, it is true that one must know' and recognise sometime, so that one can remember the thing afterwards, and it is also true that the person who takes up to the process of meditation ultimately lands into a state of Nirvikalpa sometime or other, though it is a very difficult state to attain. But it is not absolutely necessary for everyone to have reached that stage by the process of meditation. A Karmayogi or a Bhakta can attain liberation and the ultimate natural state even without having this sort of Nirvikalpa Samadhi; but all the same I have to say that he touches this stage time and again in a most natural way and knows fully what it is; and therefore, he can enjoy a ceaseless feeling of joy, of continuously being in communion with God."

This was a complete answer to my question and I was very much satisfied with it. I could not get this answer from my reading of the scriptures, but as Shri Sathya Sai Baba was kind enough to give it, I hope it would be useful for a number of aspirants including myself.

When I expressed my feeling, Shri Sathya Sai Baba went on to explain the difference between Shastra Pracheeti and Atma Pracheeti that is knowing anything through scriptures and through direct experience. He said a person who is well versed in Shastras without any experience is like a spoon dipped in a number of juices - honey, milk, fruit-juice etc. The spoon does not know the taste of any. It remains as it is. So a man who reads spiritual books acts like a spoon, but instead of a spoon one should act like the tongue. It is the business of the tongue to taste. Experience is like tongue-dipping. He further stated that the Shastras are, as it were, the ocean of knowledge; the waters of the ocean are saltish and are not therefore potable. If there is Tapas in the form of heat from the sun, the evaporation takes place, the waters rise high in the sky in the form of clouds (should we compare them to persons having attained revelation of God?) and rains pour down. These are like the words of persons who have realised God. Anyone having faith in these words believes and is satisfied with similar experience. This is like drinking river water.

The illustration was a very fitting one, very easy to understand. All of us were overjoyed and could easily appreciate the difference between Shastra-jnana and Anubhav-jnana.

Dr. Ajgaonkar who was one of those sitting around raised the question as to what is Sathya for which God is another name? Can we know this Sathya or Truth from books and if we do not know, then how can we experience it? Is it necessary that some living person should reveal it?

Shri Sathya Sai Baba immediately gave a reply. "Truth is an unchangeable entity in all the three worlds, at all three times, past, present and future and in all three stages, that is equilibrium, activity and stagnation (Satva, Rajas and Tamas). It is possible that one may not be able to see this truth due to some defect either in the eye or in the mind or in the power of vision or in the act of seeing, Dristidosha, Manodosha, Kriyadosha. But when these defects are removed, one is bound to stand face to face with truth."

In a very passionate or compassionate voice he said that the sole purpose of our life on this earth is to attain Brahman or the ultimate truth, 'All that is, is truth.' The appearance is bound to fall out sometime or other. I interjected in my usual way. I said, "Baba can we say that the meaning of Neti is: 'not that it is not this'; it is not that, but it should be according to me, 'it is not all'. Iti does not mean this or that. It is a word used to connote the end of a thing, so Neti should mean this is not an end, this is not an end. So Brahman seems to be an ever-expanding entity. Brahman does not change, but I am talking in terms of our comprehension of Brahman rather than Brahman itself. 'Brunhati iti Brahman'; that which always expands can alone be named by that word. Am I correct?"

Shri Sathya Sai Baba said, "Yes, it is like a balloon that bulges, but never bursts. This is about Pracheeti or comprehension of Brahman and not Brahman itself."

I further pursued the point of being aware of everything and asked, "I can be aware of the gross body. Further I can be aware of mind and mental processes or my subtle body; but when I attain to a position of Shoonya or negation of gross and subtle, how can I further make progress? I feel I am stranded with no help from outside and with no volition to push further."

Sahaj Sadhana: Automatic Process

Shri Sathya Sai Baba said, "Yes, human efforts cease at that point and automatic gears operate at that stage. Awareness of Karandeha is the last stage, further than which human efforts cannot go."

On some other day the same point was discussed and I asked, "What exactly is meant by automatic gears? Does it mean that the progress is made automatic without any sort of process of mind or volition?"

Shri Sathya Sai Baba explained, "No, there is some operation going on; by automatic gears I mean there is no intentional effort on the part of the aspirant but the habit of being aware pushes you forward and you naturally become aware of the negative also, and the further progress leads to revelation of the self or Mahakarandeha. This is a very long, hard and circuitous path, but one who has landed himself on it need only have patience. He should only be watchful and wait for further progress. At this stage all haste is waste."

He gave a very simple illustration in this connection.
"Look here, you hire a tonga or a taxi or start on foot so as to reach the railway station. There you pay the tongawalla and walk hurriedly, reach the station, purchase the ticket, lift up your luggage. All that is necessary till you entrain. Once you have boarded the train the efforts should cease. The engine works and the passenger can sleep and even while sleeping he is moving and if he tries to walk over, he does not cover any distance worth the name. So being aware of Karandeha or Shoonyata is a stage from where efforts lead no further and hence I said automatic gears operate at this stage."

The point was clear to all of us and we were very much satisfied with this simple illustration.

Gurukripa: Theory of Grace

Thereafter I raised a very knotty question. The exposition on the point involved in this question would, I hope, shed a flood of light on a very important problem viz Guru-shishyabhava. I asked "What is the place of grace in the spiritual progress? Is intercession by somebody else a necessity? Can anyone else lead another much farther on this Godward path? It is likely that one may gain faith in God by seeing certain miracles or hearing a speech by a saint who has experience of the highest self or Paramatma. But can all that lead the aspirant to a significant extent? What is the value of his own effort and will to march, or Shishya-prajnya? Quotations from Shastras are in conflict. They make confusion worse confounded. May we hope to have your views on this subject?"

Shri Sathya Sai Baba seemed to be very much pleased with the frankness of my question. He too was equally frank in his reply. He said, "Guru or preceptor is necessary for all common men. They need some help to lead them Godward. He makes them feel a sense of devotion to something afar, detached them from wordly affairs. But one who with his own wisdom can see the signs of God on the earth and in the sky, and who can detach his mind from the attraction of Maya, certainly can pursue his goal without anybody to initiate him. He can be his own Guru."

On this point I found Shri Sathya Sai Baba very emphatic. He gave an illustration. He said,

"Suppose the bed of a river has got so many pits in it that when rains come, the water is utilised to fill in the pits. The river does not flow. Somebody has to fill in those pits so that the river may easily flow as soon as the rain-water comes. The rain is like Grace of God which generally operates through saints but may operate through the aspirant himself. There is a sort of Anugraha swatantrya, freedom to bestow Grace. God has got this freedom in full while human souls have it to an extent. here comes the use of Shishyaprajnya, absorbing quality of the intelligence of the disciple. We all know great saints could not transform the conduct and character of those who were moving about them while a few chosen disciples made a name and propagated the message of their masters. So it is a mutual affair. I cannot see the sun if the eyes are shut. If the eye is open, and the sun is not there, still you can not see. The rays of the sun and the eye both are necessary. So the Grace of God flowing through the Guru or human preceptor and the attention of the disciple to hear and absorb, together transform the mind of the Shishya."

Shri Sathya Sai Baba said further that there is a word in Telugu, 'Guri'. It means Lakshya, both attention and the target. "This Guri," Baba said "is the real Guru. The disciple must know the target that he has to reach. There must be an unceasing attention towards that target and an eagerness to be one with it. This is real Guropadesha. Shastras are like sign-boards on the roads bearing the names of the deities to which the roads will lead. Fellow travellers, the residents or the citizens whom you meet on the road may guide you, but it is you who have to walk over the distance with unswerving steps and singlemindedness. The whole process is a complex one. All things are necessary. The most important thing in this process is the attention of the disciple of Guri. This is the only Guru in the real sense."

Lakshya or attention or target is of two types: one is Loukik Lakshya, another is Aloukik Lakshya.

Here Shri Sathya Sai Baba related the story of the disciples of Drona. "Arjuna and others were competitors in archery directing their shafts against the fruit of a tree. Arjuna alone could see the fruit - while others saw the sky, the tree, the trunk, the branches, the leaves and the foliage. The unfailing attention of Arjuna was his Guru. Aloukik Lakshya is God and Guru in ceaseless, unfailing attention, compared to Taildhara, the flow of oil when you pour it down."

Thus once again we came round to the problem of Nityawadhan, the all-time awareness.

Punashcha nityavadhanam: All-time awareness again

This all-time awareness is that of the Self.

Shri Sathya Sai Baba made a difference between ego and Self. He said, "I", pure and simple, is different from "I" identified with body, either this body or subtle body or body imagined in dream-life. This pure and simple "I", unidentified with anything, is God. Incessant awareness is this pure and simple I. This pure and simple I, is identified with God Himself. Liberation from all that is non-self is of four kinds: Salokyata, Sameepyata, Saroopata, Sayujyata; that is
(1) living in the same world of God,
(2) being near to God,
(3) being of the nature of God, and
(4) being completely identified with God.

Shri Sathya Sai Baba explained these four types of liberation by a metaphor. He said, "Look here, there is a king, there is Yuvraj or the prince, there is his brother and there are certain other people living in the palace and others living in his kingdom. People in his kingdom have Salokyata; those in the palace have Sameepyata; his brother has Saroopata and Yuvraj has Sayujyata. This last Sayujyata is of two types. One is like water filled in the jar which is dipped in water. This is just like being Yuvraj while the king is living, 'Thus together, yet apart.' But after the death of the king the prince becomes the king. The jar is broken and the water in the jar is identified with the water in which the jar was dipped."

This is another type of Sayujyata.

I then raised the question as to how the I, pure and simple, could be called God because if that I, pure and simple, is called Self - may be not ego - each one amongst us has got his own self, though pure and simple and each one must have his own I or God. God is said to be one. Is there one I, pure and simple, for all of us?

Shri Sathya Sai Baba said, "Yes. Look here, God is the pure and simple I, if you call it 'Self' or 'Atma'. It is also one. It is Adisankalpa of Brahman. It is the God, one and the same in the hearts of all. The different egos are but reflections of one and the same Self or God. This is Atmadeo. There is one moon reflected in a number of jars filled with water. So one God or Self or pure and simple I, is reflected in a number of bodies filled in with Antahkaranas or minds. This mind is material. "

I intercepted, "Is mind materil just like our body? Has it weight, dimensions, position and such other qualities like any other material object? Can it be objectified?

Shri Sathya Sai Baba said, "Yes, mind is matter. The only thing is that it is very subtle and we cannot point out to its breadth, length or weight. It can be objectified. Sankalpa can do that."

I then opened a very interesting topic of miraculous powers possessed by yogis. I asked, "Well, Baba, can you tell us how do you produce Udi, or rings or other objects?" I have seen persons who produce things like these but they were unable to explain the process of production to me. In fact, I am afraid I am not insulting the yogic power when I mention it to you that some of the persons who possess such powers do not necessarily possess good moral character. I have seen persons who have this power but who, I am told, have taken to drinking and such other vices. I am told also that there are certain lower creatures or deities or genii who do this work of bringing the objects from some other source in a very obscure manner. But these are powers of a very low character. Some yogis, it is said in the Shastras, produce things out of their mind or mental stuff. Would you kindly explain to us the process of this objectification or projection?"

Shri Sathya Sai Baba was pleased and gave out his exposition of such miraculous powers. It is well-known that he possesses these powers in abundance.

Sargantara-Nirmatritwam: Power to create physical things

He said, "Yes, as you say, these miraculous powers are of different types. Some bring the things from somewhere else but there are higher powers through which you can project the things out of your mind. You can create the things by mere Sankalpa or auspicious will. Powers acquired through certain processes of yoga are like a store-house. They can be used and exhausted. But one who uses the power of God, there is no exhaustion for him. It is the divine power that is in operation through him."

I said, "I remember to have read somewhere that God, who is Chaitanya, exhibited the whole universe outside Him - a universe which was already within Him. He is compared to a yogi who projects things out of his mind without any outside material cause.

chidatmaiva hi devontah sthitam ichchhawashaat bahih
yogeev nirupadanam arthjaatam prakashayet

Shri Sathya Sai Baba said, "Yes, it is the same power which created the whole world by mere Will that operates through a yogi and when it is so, the power is inexhaustible for it is a sort of Nidarshan (an instance) of God's power to create by force of Will. But a yogi does this with a desire to instill faith in God in all those who observe this Nidarshan or example motivated by the spiritual aim. A yogi is a fit vehicle of God to give out this example to man."

I was convinced that Shri Sathya Sai Baba not only performs miracles, but has his own theory to explain the same. I could have some idea of his motivation behind these performances.

Nidarshan and not Pradarshan: Not an exhibition of one's yogic powers but an instance of God's creation

The word which he used "Nidarshan" was a very peculiar one. Some people who criticised the exhibition of this power looked at these performances as Pradarshan of Sathya Sai Baba's miraculous powers, aimed, so they thought, for some selfish aims. But as per the exposition which Shri Sathya Sai Baba was very kind to give us I could understand that it is not Pradarshan for self but Nidarsham of God's miraculous power of creating the world out of his Will. The same thing can be looked at from different angles. Each one is free to have his own version.

Shri Sathya Sai Baba explained these miraculous powers in a very frank manner and we accepted the same without any reservation.

Nada Bindoo Kala: Sound, Light and Process of Delimitation and Identification

After obtaining explanation of miraculous powers of yogis, the discussion turned towards mystic experiences with which these miraculous povers have some sort of inner connection. Some experience an inner voice about which discussion had taken place to a certain extent. I further tried to probe into the depth and character of such experiences of Sound and Light. I asked a pointed question "Baba, can you explain to us the relation between Nada, Bindoo and Kala? The word Nada is quite clear. It is inner voice about which you have spoken so much on some other day. The Light is seen by yogis in a number of ways. While the mind is concentrated inwards on a centre in the middle of the eyebrows, the so-called Ajnya chakra, the light, begins to flash. When attention is diverted towards certain points higher than these, different shades of colour are seen. I am not inquisitive of any process of concentration that would produce this phenomenon. Kala is a word normally applied to the lighted portion of the moon that appears growing every day from the new moon-day; these are the digits of the moon. In yoga, this is defined as facet of the Universe that is comprehended by man. Kalavyapar, activity with reference to these facets of the Universe, is said to be the activity of the human mind to identify with the portion of the Universe and thus to divide the Universe by a process of comprehension.
My pointed question is: whether there is an internal connection between these three mystic Phenomena, namely, that of hearing sound, that of seeing flashes of light and of comprehending parts of Universe, in waking life, and while comprehending, identifying with the same."

Shri Sathya Sai Baba went on in his usual manner giving simple illustrations. He said, "Look here, you eat something, taste it, know it and enjoy it. Similarly you hear a sweet song that too you taste not with the tongue but with the ear, know it with the same brain, may not be with the same centre, and enjoy. You do this with different organs, you touch, you see, you smell. Contact through senses, sensation in the brain, comprehension by mind, enjoyment by heart - these are the processes common to all sense experiences. The same processes are repeated in dream or a reverie, with reference to the imaginary world. The inner you go, the more unified is the character of these experiences. Outwardly you may taste, smell or do anything. You do not have the same bodily sensation, but thereafter knowledge and enjoyment is more or less the same. There are different parts of the body. The toe of the foot and the tuft of hair on the head, they are all parts of the same body. Internally the whole body has one sensitivity or Chetana. Likewise, all these mystic experiences and ordinary experiences have a common element in them. This is called Antar sambandh. This Antar sambandh is called Samvit or Chit-shakti. The difference between the dream experience and the waking experience is patent. In dream you have no Kala, Karma, Karan and Kartavya; you have neither objective time, nor real activity. The law of conservation does not hold good, nor is there any sense of duty or volition. The mind drifts or swims in events, naturally flowing from subliminal impressions in its depth, that surge up by some invisible force, may be the will to enjoy. Waking life has a sense of time. You do some fruitful activity. There are means and ends. They make life purposive; you have a duty to perform."

I questioned, "Is there no sense of time in dream? It may not be the same as that of the waking life. But all the same there is a sense of time, space, possession, activity and one may even feel a sense of duty. How are we to understand that there is none of these ?"

Shri Sathya Sai Baba said, "Look here, the son and the father simultaneously arise in dream. Can you say there is a time-sense as you have in waking life? Even though you feel you have lived ten years in your dream-life, objectively you have lived only a few minutes which can be checked with reference to an alarm-clock kept ready to wake up."

Sukham-Dukham: Pleasure and Pain

I further asked about the sensations of pleasure and pain, "When we talk about pleasure, what is its real character? Is the pleasure of worldly life the same as that of a yogi or a Brahmajnani?"

Shri Sathya Sai Baba said, "No, certainly not. The worldly pleasures are nothing but counter-actions against pain. You feel thirsty, you drink water; you are hungry, you eat food. It is not positive pleasure that you have. But you negate the pangs of thirst and hunger."

I intervened. "Yes," I said, "I am reminded of Raja Bhartrihari's sloka from Vairagya Shatak:

Trisha shushyatyasye Pibati Salilam Swadu Surabhi
Kshudbartah San Shaleen Kawalayati Shakadiwalitan
Pradeepte Ragagnau Sudridhatarama Shrilashyati Wadhoom
Pratikaro Vyadheh Sukhamiti Viparyasyati Janah

When the mouth is parched with thirst, one drinks water, sweet and scented; tormented by hunger, one takes a morsel of food, that is rice with condiments, when the fire of passion catches the heart, a man embraces his wife; thus counteraction of pain is really misunderstood by people as some positive pleasure.

Shri Sathya Sai Baba turned towards Shri Ramakrishna Rao who was interpreting for us and said, "Raja Bhartrihari wallowed in pleasures being the king of a prosperous kingdom; he gave up all, because he understood that all worldly pleasures were nothing but a sort of counteraction. He wanted some joy. It is Vairagya or detachment alone that can lead one on the path of spirituality."

Shri Sathya Sai Baba further explained, "When you detach yourself from sense perception or sense enjoyment, you have inner joy or Anand which is different from pleasure. This Anand is permanently there in the consciousness of everyone and everyone is perfectly free to seek it and get it."

I said, "May I ask the same question once over again? Whether it is possible for one to get it by himself?" Shri P. K. Savant and Shri Bharde who were sitting by my side supported my question and inquired whether there is any necessity of a guru or an outsider to lead one to this inner joy.

Shri Sathya Sai Baba was pleased to give once again his frank reply. He said, "This is necessary for the common men. No one who is bound himself can break the chains of someone else. One who is free alone can free others. But there must be a desire to acquire this freedom. This is Mumukshatva. This itself is called Brahmajijnasa. Let no one mistake this as a mere curiosity to know the philosophical tenets. It is a sort of intense desire not only to know but to be; yes, to be happy; but this happiness is the joy, the - inner joy which I was speaking about a little while ago. One cannot have this intense desire unless one is detached from or disgusted with worldly pleasures. The mind that runs and roams about, in search of sense enjoyment cannot have this desire. A curiosity to learn may lurk in it but it will never bear fruit. But all the same I would like to make it clear that God who is ever free (swatantra) has his power of grace which is also absolutely free. He either directly or through Great Souls or Mahatmas, showers his grace on aspirants."

Signs of Grace

Here I intercepted. I said, "What really is the test whether one has received the grace of God either directly or through the saints? I have read in the Shastras that unless God is so pleased, none will receive this Brahmopadesh or lesson in spirituality and I have also read that when one gets genuine initiation, his innermost desires, panting for fulfilment in the form of enjoyment, immediately cease. Is that the test of having received the grace of God?

Shri Sathya Sai Baba said, "Yes, that is the test. When you have real initiation or your mind is turned inside, the desires of wordly enjoyment are crippled, either they completely cease or even when they arise, they seem to have lost all their power to bind you. You see them clearly arising, staying for a moment in the heart and vanishing once again into oblivion. They do not trouble you so much. To a certain extent you may enjoy the pleasures or meet other necessities of life. The whole thing is a routine affair; now the real interest lies in the spirit, the God. You see Him, live in Him and move in Him. "Life without this may be compared with," Baba elaborated "dal without salt (cooked pulses without salt), a tasteless affair."

"How can we make life good with a mind disturbed by desires? You have told us that mind is material. But experience shows that it is the mind that knows and that is active also. Inert matter cannot by itself become active."

Baba said, "Look, when water is heated by the sun, you see the reflection of the sun in the water and feel heat in it. So mind reflects the soul-pure consciousness and, therefore, appears to be sentient. As water exhibits the glitter, so mind appears to be full of consciousness. Water gets heated, mind gets restless and mobile. Contact with the sun, and contact with the soul are responsible for these phenomena".

I asked, "Just as we see the sun in the sky, quite separate from the water, can we experience the soul distinctly aloof from the mind?"

Baba said, "No. When you experience the soul that is consciousness itself, there is no mind. Just as only the sun remains, when due to hot rays of the sun, water is evaporated and the reflection with activity is gone, so meditation of the soul makes mind vanish. This is 'mana-nash' or end of mind; this is also called liberation. Only God's grace can bring about this."

"It means" I observed, "We have to separate consciousness - pure and simple - from thought, feelings and such other modifications of mind".

"Yes," Baba said, Take this piece of cloth. Cloth is nothing but threads; threads are nothing but cotton. Cotton is hidden in the threads, threads in their turn are hidden in the cloth. Take away the threads one by one, unwind the twists of the threads if you can, and you get only the cotton back. So mind is the piece of cloth, woven with thoughts and feelings with twists of desires. Take away each desire and give it up. When all thoughts, feelings and desires are gone, consciousness-pure and simple will remain. This is the soul or 'Atman', our real Self. This Self is not different from God".

I said, "Is it necessary to do all this? Even without any effort, if one is prepared to see through reason, the cloth is but cotton apparent even to the physical eye".

Baba said, "So mind, and with it the whole world comprehended by it, is nothing but 'consciousness-pure and simple', GOD IS NOWHERE, if you are not prepared to see, but otherwise, GOD IS NOW HERE.

May God bless you all!