Karanjia:
At the outset, Swamiji, we would like to know
something about Your triple incarnation -- past,
present and future -- that is, from Shirdi Sai
Baba to Sathya Sai Baba and the Prema Sai Baba
to come, according to Your prophecy.
Baba: First of all, you must
grasp the complete oneness of the three
incarnations of contemporary times with those of
the past like Rama and Krishna. This is a
difficult task. When people cannot understand
the present, how can they comprehend the past?
Every incarnation is full and complete in
relation to the time, environment and the task.
There is no distinction between the various
appearances of God as Rama, Krishna or Sai.
Rama came to feed the roots of truth and
righteousness, Krishna followed to foster the
plant of peace and love. Now these sacred
principles are in danger of wholesale
destruction by reason of human weakness under
the onslaught of evil forces. They are
overcoming the good, the spiritual and the
divine in man. That is why the present Avatar
has come invested with the totality of cosmic
power to save dharma (righteousness) from
anti-dharma.
Karanjia:
By the present Avatar, You mean Sai Baba?
Baba: Yes, I incarnate from age to
age, time to time, to save dharma from
anti-dharma. Whenever strife, discord and
disharmony overwhelm the world, God incarnates
in human form to show mankind the way to love,
harmony and peace.
Karanjia: That is understandable.
But skeptics wonder why God should assume human
form?
Baba: Because that is the only
way to incarnate the God within man. The Avatar
takes the human form and behaves in a human way
so that humanity can feel kinship with divinity.
At the same time he rises to godly heights so
that mankind also can aspire to reach God. The
realization of the indwelling God as the
motivator of life is the task for which Avatars
come in human form.
Previous Avatars like Rama and Krishna had to
destroy a few individuals who could be
identified as enemies of the godly way of life
and thus restore the dharmic path. Today,
however, wickedness has tainted so many that
humanity itself stands under the threat of
destruction. Therefore, in My present Avatar, I
have come armed with the fullness of the power
of formless God to correct mankind, raise human
consciousness and put people back on the right
path of truth, righteousness, peace and love to
divinity.
Karanjia: Why had this task to be
divided into three separate incarnations of the
Shirdi, Sathya and Prema Babas?
Baba: They are not separate. I
have already mentioned the complete oneness of
the three in the final objective of the mission.
I will give you an example. Take a kilo of gur
(a sweet substance). The whole of it tastes
sweet. Next break it into small pieces. Each of
them is sweet. Finally break them into small
grains. You find the same sweetness in them. So
the difference is one of quantity and not
quality. It is the same with the Avatars. Their
tasks and powers requisite to them differ
according to the time, the situation and the
environment. But they belong to, and derive
from, one and the same dharma swarup or divine
body.
Let us take the example of fruit. It begins with
the seed which grows into the tree and from it
comes the fruit. Work can be compared to the
seed, worship to the tree and wisdom to the
fruit.
The previous Avatar, Shirdi Baba, laid the base
for secular integration and gave mankind the
message [that] duty is work. The mission of the
present Avatar is to make everybody realize that
the same God or divinity resides in everyone.
People should respect, love and help each other
irrespective of color or creed. Thus all work
can become a way of worship. Finally, Prema Sai,
the third Avatar will promote the evangel news
that not only does God reside in everybody, but
everybody is God. That will be the final wisdom
which will enable every man and woman to go to
God. The three Avatars carry the triple message
of work, worship and wisdom.
Karanjia: So that is the holy
mission and divine purpose of this triple
incarnation?
Baba: To unite all mankind into
one caste or family in the establishment of the
unity - that is, Atmic realization - in every
man or woman, which is the basis on which cosmic
design rests. Once this is realized, the common
divine heritage that binds man to man to God
will become apparent and love shall prevail as
the guiding light of the universe.
In the first place, man has to develop into
mankind in the fullness of its integrated
potential. At present mankind as such is absent
in the world. There is no synthesis between
thought, word and deed. Man today thinks one
thing, says something different, and acts quite
the contrary. So what we have is the individual
man, confused, confounded and bombarded with
contradictory thoughts. What we do not see is
mankind in him motivated by good thoughts, good
words and good deeds. We have to make him
realize God within him to develop a synthesis
correlating thought, word and deed.
Once this primary lesson is taught in the
family, the school, the college, the society,
the cities, the states, the nations of the
world, then man will become conscious of the
fact that all mankind belongs to one family. As
Christ preached, all are one, be alike to
everyone. The vital issue is the oneness: one
caste, one class, one creed of humanity: and
this can be achieved only by the surrender of
one's self or ego to pure, selfless, universal
love and devotion. Love is the basis, the common
denominator, and devotion the divine spark, the
cementing, unifying, integrating factor between
man and man, and man and God.
Let Me give you an illustration. (Baba spreads
his handkerchief on the ground between us). Here
is a piece of cloth. As you see, it is all made
of threads. Pull out the threads separately and
the cloth becomes weak. Put them together and it
is firm and strong. It is the same with mankind.
Love binds it like the million, billion threads
in cloth and devotion reunites it with God. I,
therefore embody love and use it as My
instrument to regenerate man and create the
brotherhood of mankind with the help of the
latter's devotion. I always say: Start the
day with love. Fill the day with love. End the
day with love. This is the quickest way, the
surest path to God.
Life is love, enjoy it;
Life is a challenge, meet it;
Life is a song, sing it;
Life is a dream, realize it;
Life is a game, play it.
Karanjia: Did Shirdi Baba actually
claim that He would be born eight years after
His death in 1918?
Baba: Yes, He did. This has been
recorded by Kaka Dikshit as well as a number of
other devotees who were with Shirdi Baba.
Karanjia: What makes You so sure
that You are Shirdi Baba incarnate?
Baba: The knowledge of My own
authentic experience, of course. Since no one
who knew Shirdi Baba is alive today, there is no
evidence except My own knowledge and experience.
The very fact that I announced that I am Shirdi
Baba 40 years ago, when I was only 10 and when
nobody in this part of the South had known or
even heard of Shirdi Baba proves this fact.
Karanjia: The existing situation
driven by evil forces to destruction as You have
correctly analyzed it, appears to suggest the
inevitability of another Mahabharata-type (an
epic relating to the battle of Kurukshetra) war.
Does this mean that the salvation for which You
are working can be consummated only after a
destructive war?
Baba: The evil must and shall be
removed before such a catastrophe takes place.
There will be minor wars and skirmishes, of
course: these cannot be helped in the existing
state of affairs. The Mahabharata war was a
different issue altogether. Lord Krishna decreed
it and, in fact, led Arjuna to the battlefield
in order to rid the world of evil men and
ungodly forces.
Today, as I told you, the evil is so widespread
that humanity itself would be destroyed in a
nuclear holocaust in the event of a world war.
It is to prevent such a catastrophe that this
Avatar has come to raise human consciousness
above the existing syndrome of anger, hate,
violence and war and save the world from
disaster. This can be achieved only by the
reestablishment of the brotherhood of mankind
though the Vedas, Shastras and all religions
with their evangel of dharma to liberate the
human race from the chains of karma (the cycle
of birth and death). I always say: Let the
different faiths exist, let them flourish, let
the glory of God be sung in all the languages in
a variety of tunes. They should be the ideal.
Respect the differences between the faiths and
recognize them as valid so far as they do not
extinguish the flame of unity.
Karanjia: From what Baba has said, it seems that
there is not much difference or dichotomy
(division/separation) between God and man. Am I
right?
Baba: Quite right, God is man and
man is God. All of us have something of God, the
divine spark, within us. All men are divine like
Myself, but with the spirit embodied in human
flesh and bone. The only difference is that they
are unaware of this Godhood. They have come into
this karmic prison through the mistakes of many
lives. I have taken this mortal form out of My
own free will. They are bound to the body, while
I am free of this bondage. The main difference
is that they are shoved hither and thither by
desire but I have no desire except the supreme
one to make them desireless.
Take paddy or rice by way of an illustration.
Every grain of rice is enclosed in a husk. You
have to remove the husk to get the grain of
rice. Now husk and rice, both come from the same
seed. Rice is the equivalent of God in man,
while the husk can becompared to desire which
reduces God to man. Therefore, My formula is:
LIFE + DESIRE = MAN
LIFE - DESIRE = GOD
Karanjia: In what way can life
without desire make Gods of men?
Baba: Life without desire means
the realization of the pure, genuine self that
is Atma. Bound to desire, the self degenerates
into selfishness. Atma turns into ego. The way
of self-realization is to cleanse the self of
this ego of selfishness. Then you reach a state
of consciousness beyond the mind or intellect,
revealing the true self that is God. The mind is
like a cloth that covers and stifles
consciousness, the threads of which are desires.
If we give up the desires, the threads fall and
the cloth disappears, revealing our true nature.
That is what the Vedanta (epic of ancient wisdom
and knowledge) means when it enjoins that one
must get rid of the ego to realize oneself.
Karanjia: You mean that the mind
of man as such creates the block between man and
God?
Baba: Yes. One must make a distinction
between the mind that is the ego, and the real
self that is consciousness. The latter helps us
to cross the frontiers of the ego-mind and
become aware of oneself as the witness of truth.
Normally the scientist of the mind looks outside
to what can be perceived by the senses existing
in the world of the mind to ask: What is this?
The scientist of consciousness, on the other
hand, always looks inside to that which is
beyond the senses or the grasp of the mind to
ask: What is that?
One has, therefore, to rise beyond the mind to
consciousness to achieve self-realization. To
gain the infinite, universal Atma, the embodied
self must break out of the puny, finite little
prison of individuality. Desire belongs to the
senses, the brain, the mind; once you become
free of it, you realize the self, Atma,
consciousness, enlightenment, and become one
with the cosmic power. Self realization is
God-realization. Thus man reaches God.
Karanjia: What is the significance
of the vibuthi (holy ash) and the trinkets that
you materialize and give to people? Is there any
need for a Godman to demonstrate such miracles
which any magician can conjure?
Baba: So far as I am concerned
this is evidence of My divinity. It is not by
any means an exhibition of divinity. All
performances of magic, as you know are done for
the sake of income. These are tricks of the
magicians trade. They constitute a kind of
legalized cheating, the transfer of an object
from one place to another by a trick of the hand
which goes unnoticed. They involve no siddhi
(occult power) or miraculous power.
What I do is quite a different act of creation.
It is neither magic, nor is it siddhi power
either. For one thing, I seek no return. For
another, I do not cheat people by transferring
objects, but I create them. Again, I do so not
because of any need or desire of exhibition of
My powers. For Me this is a kind of calling card
to convince people of My love for them and
secure their devotion in return. Since love is
formless, I do materialisation as evidence of My
love. It is merely a symbol.
Karanjia: Still I do not
understand why You should materialize rings,
bracelets, watches and those kinds of trinkets.
Baba: Most people desire
talismans as symbolic of My protection. So I
provide them. When they are in trouble they feel
the grip of the ring, bracelet or watch to
remember Me and call Me to their rescue so that
I can help them. On the other hand, if I give
them something they cannot wear, they are likely
to store it and forget about it.
The main thing is that these trinkets or
talismans, by whatever name you call them, give
people a sense of security and protection they
need in times of troubles or crises and create a
symbolic link covering the long distances
between them and Myself. When the devotees need
Me, these objects flash the message as if by
wireless and I instantly come to their rescue.
Karanjia: I am sorry to be
persistent, Swamiji, but isn't the gift of an
Omega or HMT watch an act of cheating the
company or breach of its patent?
Baba: I assure you there is no
such thing. It would be cheating the company or
breaching the patent if it were a case of
transfer of the watch from one place to the
other. But I do not transfer; I totally create.
Whatever I will, instantly materializes. I know
of no company that has complained about any
breach of patent.
Karanjia: What about vibuthi
materialized by you? We would like to know its
relevance because Your critics are trying to
discredit You by sending around magicians who
produce exact replicas of vibuthi.
Baba: What I materialize is a
manifestation of divinity with a potent
significance as well as symbolism. It is
symbolic of the cosmic, immortal and infinite
nature of all forms of God, Atma or the spirit
-- that is, what is left when everything
worldly, transient and changeable has burnt
away.
I have spoken to you of the imperative of a
desireless life. After Shiva had burnt the God
of desire, Kama, into a heap of ashes, he
adorned himself with the ash to shine as the
conqueror of desire. When Kama was destroyed,
Prema reigned as the Goddess of love. Such is
the significance of ash.
In the first place, it is symbolic of the
life-death cycle in which everything ultimately
reduces itself to ash. "For dust thou art, and
unto dust shall thou returnest." Ash or dust is
the final condition of things. It cannot undergo
any further change. In the spiritual context, it
constitutes a warning to the receiver to give up
desire, to burn all passions, attachments and
temptations, and makes one pure in thought, word
and deed.
It is in order to press home this lesson that I
materialize ash for those who come to Me with
love and devotion. Like the other
materializations, it also acts as a talisman,
healing the sick and giving protection to those
who need it. It is the symbol of divinity, quite
different from the magician's trickery mentioned
by you.
Karanjia: You are believed to have
performed miraculous cures to the extent of
resurrecting the dead. There are cases where You
reportedly saved people from drowning and other
accidents in distant places. Medical experts
have attested to remote controlled surgical
operations performed by You. How do You manage
these?
Baba: By My own sankalpa --
that is, divine will and power. As an Avatar,
this power is intrinsic, inherent, total and
natural to My will and decision. I need no
mantra (mystical formula), no sadhana
(spiritual practice), no tantra (sacred
writings) and no yantra (pilgrimage) to
perform the so-called miracles which are natural
to My state. My powers are simply the expression
or assertion of the reality of goodness which
merges Me with everything, everywhere, at all
times and places. The miracles belong to the
boundless power of God.
Now coming to the main points of your question,
this healing phenomena has a dual aspect. I can
cure, save, even resurrect people provided they
are in a spiritually receptive condition. It is
like the positive and negative currents of
electricity. My capacity to heal can be compared
to the positive current. Your devotion to Me is
like the negative current. Once the two come
together, the devotion provides what is called
the miracle of healing.
It is man's mind that is really responsible for
his illness or health. He himself is the cause
or motivator of either. So when it comes to
healing or curing, the necessary faith has to be
created within his mind for the purpose. All I
do is invest him with the confidence, will and
power to cure himself. It is My abounding love
reciprocated by the intensity of the devotee's
faith in Me that produce the desired result.
Karanjia: So these are not siddhic
powers or magical tricks, as Your critics
suggest?
Baba: They are neither magical
tricks nor siddhic (occult) powers, which can
come to everybody with the appropriate
discipline and yoga exercises, but My powers to
protect, heal and save people and materialize
objects originate in God and can be used only by
an Avatar. They are in no way designed,
disciplined or developed, but flow from cosmic
power.
Karanjia: Some say that you
command invisible spirits which can transfer
objects from one place to another on your
orders.
Baba: There is no need for Me to
command invisible spirits since My own divine
will materializes the objects. I am everything,
everywhere, omniscient, omnipotent and
omnipresent; and so whatever I will, instantly
happens. Like the qualities of truth, love and
peace, these are things that generate the atmic
(godly) or cosmic forces behind the universe.
The critics of Swamiji ask why Sai Baba does not
help people in distress by bringing rains in
times of drought or creating food where there is
famine by means of his sankalpa shakti (divine
power, universal energy). Cannot an Avatar help
humanity to control the natural forces and
prevent calamities like earthquakes, floods,
droughts, famine and epidemics?
This is precisely what I am doing by incarnating
the in-dwelling God in man to overcome such
calamities. There are two ways in which an
Avatar can help people: an instant solution as
against a long term one.
Any instant solution would go against the
fundamental quality of nature itself as well
against the karmic law of cause and effect. Most
people live in the material world of their
desires and egos, which is governed by this law.
They reap the fruits of their actions. This
brings about their evolution or devolution. If
the Avatar intervenes to instantly solve their
problems, it would stop all action, development,
even evolution. This solution can be ruled out
because it totally negates the natural laws.
The other and more effective alternative
presents a long-term solution whereby the Avatar
leads the people themselves to a higher level of
consciousness to enable them to understand the
truth of spiritual laws so that they may turn
towards righteousness and steadfastly work for
better conditions. This will relate them back to
nature and the karmic law of causation. This
would then transcend the cycle of cause and
effect in which today they are involved as
victims and thereby command and control the
natural forces to be able to avert the
calamities you mention.
Karanjia: You mean that You are
presently raising the consciousness of mankind
to a godlike condition to enable them to command
their own destiny?
Baba: Exactly. They would become
shareholders of My sankalpa shakti
(divine power, universal energy). I have to work
through them, rouse the in-dwelling God in them
and evolve them to a higher reality in order to
enable them to master the natural law and
forces. If I cure everything instantly, leaving
the people at their present levels of
consciousness, they would soon mess up things
and be at one another's throats again with the
result that the same chaotic situation would
develop in the world.
Suffering and misery are the inescapable acts of
the cosmic drama. God does not decree these
calamities but man invites them by way of
retribution for his own evil deeds. This is
corrective punishment which induces mankind to
give up the wrong path and return to the right
path so that he may experience the godlike
condition of sat-chit-ananda -- that is, an
existence of wisdom and bliss. All this is part
of the grand synthesis in which the negatives
serve to glorify the positives. Thus death
glorifies immortality, ignorance glorifies
wisdom, misery glorifies bliss, night glorifies
dawn.
So, finally, if the Avatar brings the calamities
mentioned by you to an immediate end, which I
can do, and do, when there is a great need, the
whole drama of creation with its karmic
(universal, inescapable duty) law will collapse.
Remember, these calamities occur not because of
what God has made of man but really because of
what man has made of man. Therefore, man has to
be unmade and remade with his ego destroyed and
replaced by a transcendent consciousness so that
he may rise above the karmic to command.
Karanjia: Have you succeeded in bringing
about this synthesis, Swamiji, particularly with
the wealthy and powerful classes?
Baba: I have not reached all of them as
a class, but to the extent that I am able to
contact them individually, the results are
encouraging. The wealthy and powerful, of
course, present a difficult problem in the
matter of transformation. They need a special
approach. The poor people, on the other hand,
are very cooperative. They understand,
appreciate and help My plans and ideas.
Karanjia: What is the solution to
this escalating conflict between wealth and
power on one side, and poverty and weakness on
the other?
Baba: The transformation of both
into a single cooperative brotherhood on terms
of equality without competition or conflict.
This can result only from truth and love. The
main issue is to fuse the two classes into one
single class. The problem, however, is one of
bringing them together on a common base or
platform. Wealthy people live isolated in a
certain state or condition. The poor also are
similarly isolated in another state or
condition. How do we bring them together?
I do so in many subtle ways by breaking the
barriers of wealth and poverty and creating a
feeling of equality and oneness between the poor
and the rich. In this ashram (spiritual
community) you find them living and working
together, even performing menial labor on terms
of complete equality. Here there are no
distinctions whatever, nor any special
facilities for the rich. They live, eat, work,
worship and sleep like the poor. All live like a
community of workers to share the common
austerities of the ashram.
Despite our rigorous discipline, industrialists
and businessmen want to come here. Why? Because
they secure peace of mind beyond physical
comfort which no wealth or power on earth can
purchase or provide.
Thus we open to them a wonderful new world of
spiritual treasures and they must sacrifice
material wants and comforts. My mission is to
show them the way to peace of mind which
everybody, rich and poor alike, desires. In that
process of spiritual evolution, the seeker
learns that this blissful state cannot be
purchased for money in a shop or gifted to one
by anybody but oneself. It can come only from
the universal source of divinity, the
in-dwelling God that embraces poor and rich
alike. This concept creates a common fellowship,
a brotherhood of give and take between the
wealthy and the poor. Those who have too much
are obliged to give up their unnecessary wants,
while those who have too little get their needs
fulfilled.
After all, in spiritual terms, all mankind
belongs to one and the same class, caste or
religion. The divine principles in each and all
of them derive from one and the same God. This
fundamental oneness has to be made manifest to
them through direct contact with spiritual
realities and the persuasive expanding power of
love, till they become part of the universal
religion of work, worship and wisdom.
Karanjia: All this would be simple
and welcome evangel for the poor since they lose
nothing and gain everything from Your
philosophy, but what about the rich who have to
lose all if they followed it?
Baba: That is the crux of the
problem. They simply have to lose, surrender,
submerge their false values if they want My
grace. So long as people continue to be slaves
of materialistic definitions of wealth and
poverty, there can be no solution. I, therefore,
try to convert their minds and hearts to
spiritual values and truths.
After all, who is the richest man? One who has
the largest wants and, therefore, troubles and
worries? Or one who is satisfied with the barest
necessities of life and, therefore, is more or
less desireless and comparatively happy? Judged
from this criterion of happiness, the poor are
spiritually rich but the rich are spiritually
poor. It is not material but spiritual
satisfaction that ultimately makes life worth
living.
As I have said before, life without desire
brings divinity to man; and those who seek My
grace must shed desire and greed. Riches provide
a fatal temptation. They are the source and
cause of human bondage. The desire to raise the
standard of life can never be satisfied. It
leads to multiplication of wants and consequent
troubles and frustrations.
No Grace Without Sacrifice
The solution lies in our emphasis on the quality
as against the standard of life, on high
thinking and lowly living. The mind is the
horse, the body the cart: to achieve mental
peace, you must put the horse of high thinking
before the cart of physical comfort.
Karanjia: This is sound philosophy but
how do You implement it in action?
Baba: The rich as well as the poor come
to Sai Baba to seek love, peace and liberation
from their problems and troubles. My
prescription to them is absolute selflessness
and desirelessness. To the poor, this is a
natural state or condition. So My love flows to
them to embrace their devotion. Thus they obtain
My grace.
Monkey-Mind Bondage
The rich, on the other hand, cannot
secure this grace without surrendering their
materialistic outlook and selfish attachments.
So it becomes obligatory for them to sacrifice
material greed to receive spiritual grace. I
tell them:
Ego lives by getting and forgetting,
Love lives by giving and
forgiving.
In this way, I change their mental attitude. I
transform their monkey-minds into loving, giving
and forgiving minds.
Karanjia: Monkey-minds, Baba --
what do You mean?
Baba: It is a kind of mentality
that is used by peasants to trap and destroy
monkeys. When the peasant wants to catch a
monkey, he uses a big pot with a narrow mouth as
a trap. Inside the pot he puts edibles which the
monkey loves. The monkey finds the pot and puts
its paws inside to grasp as much of the stuff as
it can hold. Once it does so, it is unable to
pull out its paws from the small mouthof the
pot. It imagines that someone inside the pot is
holding its paws, so it struggles and attempts
to runaway with the pot, only to fail and get
trapped. No one is holding the monkey; it has
trapped itself because of its greed. If only it
lets the stuff in its paws go, it will be free
of bondage.
In the same way I tell rich people, man is
tempted by the wealth, pleasures and desires of
the world. When he gets lost in such attachment
and suffers the consequences of greed, he thinks
that something is binding him down, capturing
him, destroying him. The moment he gives up
material wealth and desires, he will be free. I
make him realize his bondage to the monkey-mind
and liberate himself.
Baba's Spiritual Socialism
Karanjia: Baba seems to be
prescribing a kind of spiritual socialism based
on the conversion of wealth into a trusteeship
for the removal of poverty.
Baba: Yes, a trusteeship based on love,
cooperation and brotherhood. What else can one
do? The change must evolve from the heart; it
cannot be imposed from outside. All materialist
doctrines have failed to bring about any real
transformation. There is no equality anywhere.
Only spiritual transformation into a desireless
mentality can put through the imperative
revolution in human consciousness from which
alone the desired changes can accrue.
We need to transform society from false to real
values. We have to convince people that the
ideal of a high standard of life is wrong. It
must be replaced with a high level of living and
thinking on the basis of humility, morality,
compassion and detachment, as against the
existing greed for competitive luxury and
conspicuous consumption. People have to be
convinced that the only way to rouse the latent
divinity in them is to master desires and
conquer greed for pleasure and luxury instead of
being a slave to these false materialistic
values.
Sai Path to Dharma (Righteousness)
Karanjia: Then I take it that the
various educational and social service
organizations run by Baba -- some 3.000 in all
-- are designed to create the cadres necessary
for bringing about the desired socio-economic
change by means of love and persuasion?
Baba: They are designed to put the
new generation on the Sai path of truth,
righteousness, peace, love and nonviolence.
Their motto -- work is worship and duty is God
-- seeks to bring in the new social order
related to Sathya -- that is, truth, and dharma
-- namely, right action.
Karanjia: India has been described
as a rich country of poor people. We have the
wealth of the whole world locked up in the bosom
of our good earth. And yet the people remain
economically poor and backward. Have You any
solution to rehabilitate our economy?
Socio-Economic Synthesis
Baba: Your analysis is
correct. The solution to the problem you have
posed lies in hard work and increased production
on a cooperative basis. To achieve this, one has
to rid people of the disease of individuality,
greed and selfishness. Every individual must be
taught to think and work in the broader concept
of society and its needs. Once that is done,
there will be less talk and more work.
Here again, it is the spiritual path that can
save this country and the world from the wrongs
of a materialistic order. What we need is a
synthesis of the spiritual and material aspects
of life. That will provide man with the social
conscience and cooperative spirit imperative to
the creation of national wealth and prosperity
through selfless, cooperative labor.
Karanjia: Very good counsel,
Swamiji - but the trouble is that all the wealth
created by labor appears to find its way into
the pockets of a rich and powerful minority.
Have You a spiritual prescription for this
inequality?
Desire must be equalized
Baba: There is no doubt that the
distribution is not taking place properly. The
existing doctrines of equality, socialism, etc.,
have not succeeded in achieving equality in
distribution of wealth and property. The
difficulty is that you equalize, wealth, land
and property by legalization, but can the law
bring about equality in the desires of the
people? This requires the healing touch of
spiritualism.
To begin with, one has to cure desire and its
evil consequences. We must persuade the rich
that desire and its fulfillment in materialistic
wants is an aspect of the monkey-mind which can
only harm them and put them under bondage. That
alone will solve the problem of inequality and
maldistribution.
The rich will give up their extravagant wants,
the poor will get what they need and a little
more; and this process will bring about more
equitable distribution.
Karanjia: To conclude this
section, Swamiji, would You sum up the main
causes of India's social and economic
backwardness?
Baba: From a purely material
viewpoint, it is a question of supply and
demand. Because of the overpowering material
values of our society, the demand is growing
larger and larger, while the supply remains the
same or decreases. The solution, obviously, is
to increase the supply or decrease the demand.
Then, of course, there is the problem of growing
population. This triangular issue of economic
imbalance needs to be spiritualised if an
effective solution is to be found.
Less Luggage : Better Journey
It is here that our insistence on a desireless
life, in which human wants are reduced to the
minimum needs, comes to the rescue as the only
possible way of restoring the social and
economic balance. Curb your desires, reduce your
wants, live in spiritual austerity, and the
available material will be sufficient for all
humanity. More than that, the tensions of a
competitive socioeconomic system will be
dissolved and peace of mind will be restored.
Life is like a journey in a vehicle between
birth and death. The body is the vehicle in
which you are motoring to death. The less
luggage you carry the better. Why encumber
yourself with worldly riches and material
comforts, when you may have to change your
course or even meet with some dislocation or
accident and, in any case, at the end of the
journey you will have to leave behind all your
possessions accept your Atma? Would it not be
better to attend to the immortal spirit rather
than waste time which is running out on gaining
wealth and securing comforts?
This is the logic of spiritualism with which I
seek to change the attitude of people.
Why no Pumpkins or Cucumbers
Karanjia: Baba has already
clarified most of the issues raised by Dr.
Narasimhiah and other critics. Some, however,
remain unanswered. Narasimhiah asks why You do
not materialize a pumpkin or a cucumber or a
watch with a distinct mark to prove that it is
your creation and not a transfer of somebody
else's manufacture?
Baba: Pumpkins and cucumbers can
be materialized as easily as rings or objects.
But these are perishable objects and the whole
point of materialization, as I have already
explained, lies in their permanence. That is why
rings or watches become more serviceable as
talismans or means of contact and communication,
between the Avatar and his devotees.
The point they are trying to make is that big
objects like pumpkins cannot be transferred
while small ones like rings can be. But as I
have repeatedly said, I do not transfer things
by a sleight-of-hand. I create them to be
talismans.
Now coming to your question about a ring or
watch with a distinct mark to prove that it is
My own creation, would you like Me to
materialize something for you?
Miracle of OM Ring
Karanjia: Yes,
Swamiji, I certainly would.
Baba waved his hand in the air to
produce a silver ring bearing the inscription OM
in the centre with Sai Ram marks on the sides
and held My right hand to gently put it on the
third finger. It was an exact fit and it was
precisely what I wanted from Baba.
Karanjia: Thank You, Baba, You
have answered the question beautifully. Now to
Narasimhiah's unanswered point regarding the
bogus Sai Krishna or Pandavapura exposed by his
committee as a fraud and a cheat. He alleges
that the boy had Your patronage.
No Contact with Fake Boy
Baba: I can assure you there is
absolutely no connection between him and Myself.
His people have several times attempted to
arrange a meeting between us, but we have
refused their requests. Of course, thousands of
people, as you saw this morning, come here for
darshan. There are others also who masquerade as
My disciples or make money using My name. As
this happens not only here but in other states
and even abroad, we cannot do anything about it.
They expose themselves sooner or later, as did
this boy. I have absolutely no connection or
relationship with such people.
Karanjia: The Narasimhiah
Committee wanted to investigate Your miracles
scientifically under controlled conditions, as
they put it. You rejected the proposal. Would
You like to comment on this controversy?
Baba: How can science which is
bound to a physical and materialist outlook
investigate transcendental phenomena beyond its
scope, reach or comprehension? This is a fallacy
on the face of it. One belongs to the material
and the other to a spiritual plane. Science must
confine its inquiry only to things belonging to
the human senses, while spiritualism transcends
the senses. If you want to understand the nature
of spiritual power you can do so only through
the path of spirituality and not science. What
science has been able to unravel is merely a
fraction of the cosmic phenomena; it tends,
however, to exaggerate its contribution.
Karanjia: That is true, Swamiji,
but science is developing all the time so that
the metaphysics of yesterday become the physics
of today.
Glow-Worm in Sunlight
Baba: Quite right, but it is still
blind to the vast and invisible world of
consciousness. The very fact that science is
changing all the time proves its incapacity to
investigate the ultimate and absolute truth.
Some time ago, scientists maintained that the
atom cannot be broken, but recently they
succeeded in breaking it. They are still
ignorant about the realities of the pranic force
behind the atom, which is the least of its
components.
Science is merely a glow-worm in the light and
splendor of the sun. It is true that it can
research, discover and gather a lot of
information about nature and its material
functions and use it for the development of
worldly things. Spiritualism, on the other hand,
reigns over the cosmic field where science has
no place. That is why some discoveries of
science are useful while others can be
disastrous.
As I have said before, Dr Narasimhiah and his
group are like the Telugu men who go to the
cinema to see a Tamil film. They will see only
the dancing, the fighting and violence, the
heroes and villains, the star with a beautiful
face and these kinds of superficial things, but
they will lose the subtler aspects such as the
music and the poetry, the plot, the dialogue,
the jokes and the like.
Wrong Spirit and Approach
However, as I have said again and again, those
who want to understand Me are welcome here. It
is the spirit of the investigation that is
important. Foreign parapsychologists have come
here and examined Me in such a positive and
constructive spirit. You have seen their
reports. They do not write letters or make
public demands.
Narasimhiah's approach was improper; that is why
I rejected it. If it were not so, he would have
been welcome. I do not call people here so that
they may bow to a God. I want them to come, see,
hear, study, observe, experience and realize
Baba. Then only, they will understand Me and
appreciate the Avatar.
Karanjia: Dr. Narasimhiah
maintains that according to science, "Nothing
can be created out of nothing." You have
evidently negated this law of science with a
transcendental formula for controlling cosmic
energy and producing paranormal power. Can You
explain this mystery?
"What I Will, Happens"
Baba: The formula that nothing can
be created out of nothing is appropriate to the
limited field and dimensions of science. It does
not at allapply to the transcendental field and
dimensions of spirituality. In the latter field,
anything can be createdby the supreme will. All
that exists can be made to disappear and what
does not exist can be made to appear.
Our history and tradition, scripture as well as
literature, are full of such incidents which
they call miracles. The material laws and
formulas simply do not apply to divinity. For Me
this is not a matter of any mystery or mystique.
What I will, happens: what I order,
materializes.
Karanjia: The Vice-Chancellor
appears to ridicule your statement that "There
is God in us all." He asks: "Is this not pure
escapism? How can God be so unsure of Himself?"
Your rejoinder, please?
God Exists in Everybody
Baba: His questions contradict
the very basis of Indian philosophy as well as
that of most religions. All our scriptures
assert that God is present in everyone.
According to Vivekananda, "God is present in
all." The only thing that is manifest and common
to the whole world and, in fact, governs and
directs the entire universe, is divinity.
Nothing else really exists except divinity.
Mine is no escapism but the fundamental and
eternal truth. I say so not because I am unsure
of My own divinity. It is My confidence in its
absolute and total authenticity that makes Me
affirm this fact. It is the scientists who are
so unsure of themselves that they indulge in
escapist theories.
For example, they say that the moon is lifeless.
Simultaneously, they maintain that all matter
consists of moving atoms. Now isn't the moon
also a conglomerate of the same moving atoms?
Then how can it be lifeless? There is no matter
which does not consist of atoms, electrons,
neutrons and protons, which are also constantly
moving. This energy, too, is God.
So also there is no human being in whom there is
no divinity. To say there is no God in man is
like saying that there is no atom in the moon or
any large lump of matter. The omnipresence of
God has been described in our ancient texts as:
"ano baniyammahatoo maniyam" (God is a small
particle in the smallest of particles and a
large mass in the largest of masses). In this
context, how can one say that God is not in man?
No Preference for Wealth and Power
Karanjia: Another pertinent issue
raised by Your critics is that You show a
preference for wealthy and powerful people as
opposed to the poor and weak in the matter of
divine gifts, miracle cures and individual
darshans. Is this true? If so, why?
Baba: This is wrong. I
never see or make any distinction between the
rich and the poor. I only look at them from the
viewpoint of their devotion, their desires, the
sacrifice they are willing to make and their
troubles. You were here this morning and saw
hundreds of people, a few rich, the majority
poor. Did you find Me making any distinction?
All those I brought with Me to this room were
poor and weak, sick or troubled.
In My view, those who appear to the world as
wealthy or powerful persons really bring to Me
their troubled hearts and sick minds. I cure
them by asking them to surrender material wealth
and power to spiritual peace and grace.
Karanjia: From what Baba has
hitherto said, it appears that Your mission is
to enable mankind to rediscover and incarnate
its lost godliness. Am I right?
Baba: You are right. When man
turns inward to realize his true self, then God
will become manifest to him. Self-realization is
God-realization. In simple words, it is the
realization that you are not just a body and
mind with physical organs, but there is within
you a self - the Atma that is God - distinct
from these perishable things. This self is
omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient. The
comprehension of this truth puts you on the
correct path to God-realization.
Terror of Nuclear War
Karanjia: So Your objective can be
summed up as a brotherhood of humanity to be
achieved through the doctrine of love?
Baba: Yes, what else can save the world
from thermonuclear fires? Everything points to
the terror of conflagration coming; and My
mission is to preempt the fires by
reestablishing dharma and the spiritual law of
one God, one religion, one language embracing
one humanity.
I preach only one religion of love for all,
which alone can integrate the human race into a
brotherhood of man under the fatherhood of God.
I know only one language of the heart beyond the
mind or the intellect which relates man to man
and mankind to God, thereby creating mutual
understanding, cooperation and community life in
peace and harmony. On this basis I want to build
one humanity without any religious, caste or
other barriers in a universal empire of love
which would enable My devotees to feel the whole
world as their family.
Karanjia: Well said, Baba -- but
wouldn't this dharma with its Hindu orientation
conflict with the established religions?
Baba: No, it will not do anything
of the kind because My objective is the
establishment of sanathana dharma, which
believes in one God as propitiated by the
founders of all religions. So none has to give
up his religion or deity, but through them
worship the one God in all. I have come not to
disturb or destroy but to confirm and vindicate
everyone in his own faith.
Dharmic Way to Peace
Karanjia:
But how will that prevent a nuclear holocaust?
Baba: By removing all causes,
sources, barriers and provocations of class,
caste, creed, color and race, and replacing the
existing hate and violence with love and
non-violence. I expect to provide humanity with
an evangel of peaceful cooperation to replace
the present escalation to death by
co-destruction.
R.K. Karanjia: Thank You, Swamiji.
I am all the more grateful to You because I
really did not expect You to answer the whole
long list of my questions.
Source:
-
http://saibaba.ws/articles/interviewwithjournalistsept1976.htm
- About Russi, Rustom
Khurshedji Karanjia (15-9-1912 / 1-2-2008)